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Post by busman7 on Jan 2, 2013 11:16:48 GMT -5
And Gogo, since I can’t use the edit function here, let me just add that resorting to name calling, innuendo and vitriol is not the way an intelligent and mature person handles a discussion. There are plenty of ways to conduct a debate and offer opposing views without resorting to tactics and behavior that should have been left behind in junior high school. Although we have yet to see what sort of new LP forum emerges after house keeping, it’s likely a safe bet that it will be precisely the kind of conduct you insist upon engaging that will no longer be tolerated. In short, it is very likely that you, and quite a lot of others, will have to find a new venue to host your discussions. In other words, find a new playground, or learn to adapt to the standards that the BBC will clearly insist upon. It’s really rather simple. For example, you might find this venue far more suitable to you, as already have a large number of other past YC regulars: www.politicalstew.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=113650&start=0There are plenty of other excellent travel forums that don’t allow the sort of unsavory conduct that was rampant on TT in the past, and it’s very clear that the BBC is not interested in having any part of its LP forum, Thorn Tree, being a “bear pit” as you referred to YC. If you or anyone else has a problem with any of this, then write to the “powers that be” at the BBC or LP. There is no point in running amok with me to vent your frustration, as quite frankly, I could care less. Of course if there were any truth/relevance to your rant, you would have joined this site rather than posting as a lowly guest.
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Post by bystander on Jan 2, 2013 14:00:13 GMT -5
There are plenty of other travel forums but I wouldn't call any of them excellent. Tripadvisor is now so riddled with self-promotion and false reviews that it gets tiresome just navigating it. Virtual Tourist hands out little virtual badges and scores for everything which results in people giving any answer (mostly wrong) to a question just to get their numbers up. Bootsnall is as quiet as a church, Frommer's is dead. The only forum which I can think of as getting even close to TT is Viajeros and that is in Spanish so of little use to those who don't speak it. Of the travel forums in English, which, airbender, do you consider excellent? Because I haven't come across them and I would be interested to know.
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gogo
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Post by gogo on Jan 2, 2013 15:51:26 GMT -5
Oh goody - 'airhead' came back. Don't let's engage in 'innuendo' - let's just say that the internet is a really amazing tool. If you just type into google "Roy Thompson"+Bali (or Ubud) you get an amazing lot of information. It appears he's quite well-known in Bali - for all the wrong reasons... many of them MOST 'unsavoury'. And I now have a very large dossier on him and his activities (real or imagined). Too busy today to pass it to the national press - maybe tomorrow. Poor BBC, egg on face all round. I feel quite sorry for them, as they jumped a little too soon without checking airhead's credentials. I think things will be restored to normal very soon.
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Post by Airbender on Jan 2, 2013 19:00:31 GMT -5
Gogo, yes, there is some amazing fiction to be found on the blogosphere. Obviously you are one who believes everything you read there. However, none of that “creative writing” has anything to do with the topic at hand, that being the truthful reason behind why TT was temporarily shut down.
Bystander, some of the best travel related forums are those which are destination specific, and not all encompassing such as TT, TA, VT, etc. Of those all encompassing forums, TT is excellent overall, despite its concentration on budget/backpacking travel which is not consistent with its published guide books. And, there is plenty of inaccurate information to be found on the TT forum, as with any other forum. Obviously, total perfection and accuracy is impossible to achieve in any travel forum.
As the new owners of LP, the BBC is clearly concerned that the TT forum is operated on a family use basis, and not regarded as an adult content website. Only they can determine if it makes any sense, or if it serves any useful purpose, to maintain boards such as YC within that forum when that board is clearly subject to regular abuse, and clearly having nothing to do with travel.
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Post by bystander on Jan 2, 2013 21:36:46 GMT -5
Alright, give me some names of destination specific websites for any South American country. I say SA country as that is what I know. I wouldn't presume to judge a website dealing with somewhere I don't and I consider the TT SA forum to be very good. If you don't know any, then you will have to qualify your comment indicating destinations you are familiar with and not generalising about ones you are not.
In fact, I did wonder how a writer from Bali was qualified to evaluate websites or bits of websites which cover the whole world. It was probably one of those "10 BEST" lists which Bootsnall loves so much. Light entertainment but not very useful.
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Post by Airbender on Jan 2, 2013 22:01:03 GMT -5
What I wrote was this,
“Bystander, some of the best travel related forums are those which are destination specific, and not all encompassing such as TT, TA, VT, etc.”
South America isn’t an area I am familiar with, and thus I can’t suggest any specific SA country travel forums. I’m happy to take your word for it that TT does a good job on SA. That’s great, but that doesn’t mean that other country specific travel forums that are out there don’t do a better job with that specific country than the all encompassing forums like TT, TA, VT, etc.
“In fact, I did wonder how a writer from Bali was qualified to evaluate websites or bits of websites which cover the whole world.”
So, you presume then that a writer currently living on Bali hasn’t been anywhere else in the world and doesn’t regularly travel elsewhere? Would you also presume that a writer from New York, London, or Paris would somehow be more qualified? Sorry, but I can’t find any logic in your comment.
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june2
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Post by june2 on Jan 2, 2013 23:11:31 GMT -5
I doubt if we will see TT again. It's going to Tripadvisor, Expedia or some other. Can't possibly take about 2 wks to sort Jimmy Savile out.
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gogo
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Post by gogo on Jan 3, 2013 3:55:18 GMT -5
Dear Airhead, unlike you I am a journalist, not just a soi-disant travel writer, and know how to investigate and sort out the wheat from the chaff. Believe me, there's more than enough wheat to make quite a large loaf. Which I shall rather enjoy watching you swallow.
June, I think we'll get our TTback again. Maybe altered slightly - though Airhead's contention that it's a 'family' website is way off the mark. Tripadvisor has had too much bad publicity for the BBC to want to give way to them, and TT ensures the sale of LP books, which would sink without trace were the website not up and working.
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Post by bystander on Jan 3, 2013 4:46:05 GMT -5
"So, you presume then that a writer currently living on Bali hasn’t been anywhere else in the world and doesn’t regularly travel elsewhere? Would you also presume that a writer from New York, London, or Paris would somehow be more qualified? Sorry, but I can’t find any logic in your comment."
I don't assume a writer in Bali doesn't travel. I travel. But I would not presume to judge the websites of places I do not know very well, especially if I were writing an article about their worth. No one is an expert on the entire world and I doubt even you have been to every country available. So give me a very good destination specific website for the area you know best and I'll have a look. Then, although I may never have been there or only briefly visited, I will tell you if it is any good.
The world has plenty of arrogant, self-righteous people who always claim to be acting for the greater good when they are really just trying to turn the world into a mirror to admire themselves in.
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Post by Airbender on Jan 3, 2013 7:22:17 GMT -5
Gogo, if the BBC/LP did not regard the report they received as credible and accurate, (and from a reliable source), then they surely would have ignored it and trashed it.
They didn’t, and the reason they didn’t is obvious…they did their own homework. That should be crystal clear to you. Or, do you honestly think the BBC/LP would temporarily shut down the TT forum without doing their homework and checking the facts relayed in the report?
Obviously this is causing you a great deal of anger and distress. Well, that’s for you to work out on your own. Personally, I could care less about your personal issues or problems. However, I do wish you luck in finding a “happy place” where you can carry on to your heart’s content.
Bystander, I couldn’t agree more with your comment, “no one is an expert on the entire world and I doubt even you have been to every country available.”
Here are some excellent country/area specific forums pertaining to my area which are excellent:
The Bali Travel Forum. This has been around for the same length of time as TT…about 16 years. Being particularly favored by Australians, it leans towards their particular areas of interest, meaning the party scene in Kuta.
Balipod, aka, the Bali Expat Forum. Not surprisingly, expat forums are often far better for finding the best restaurants, places to shop, things to do, and best night life.
Lombok Lovers Forum. Excellent for up to date and current information on the island of Lombok. This is operated by a long time foreign resident of Lombok married to a local.
There are plenty more I could cite, but these should be enough for you to spend some time looking at.
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Post by bystander on Jan 3, 2013 8:57:56 GMT -5
I will indeed look at the websites. I take it then that you are the "Bali writer" being referred to in the posts?
The BBC hasn't put a foot right lately and this is just one of the many instances of getting it wrong we have seen over the past couple of years. Maybe it has something to do with the letter B: Banks, BBC, Bali.
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june2
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Post by june2 on Jan 3, 2013 19:25:44 GMT -5
The LP logo is back amongst my bookmarks but when I try to login to TT I get that blue screen again.
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Post by bystander on Jan 3, 2013 19:29:38 GMT -5
The longer TT is off, the harder it will be to come back.
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Post by Airbender on Jan 3, 2013 19:31:41 GMT -5
Bystander, no, I’m not the “Bali writer”, but I know her very well and I’ve seen the report sent to the BBC as well as their replies, so I have some insight as to what’s going on. It would seem to me that the identity of this “Bali writer” is moot, as it has nothing to do with her report to BBC or article for the NY Times. Also, as noted earlier, clearly the BBC and Lonely Planet took it seriously. First contact with the BBC was on December 16, and the forum was closed on December 22. In those ensuing six days one can only assume that the BBC and LP did their homework, and clearly they found ample good reasons to temporarily close the forum while they went to work on it. Here we are thirteen days later and the forum is still closed although much of that time was over the Christmas and New Year holiday. In my mind that hardly indicates that when TT comes back, it will hardly be “altered slightly.” Common sense dictates that. Again, being privy to the initial report and subsequent correspondence between the “Bali writer” and the BBC/LP I know that one area of discussion concerned TT’s moderation practices. TT moderates on a reactive basis rather than a proactive basis, relying more on members to report inappropriate posts. In a recent article on Tnooz, this is also discussed: “But the saga is another signal that large community sites which rely on reactive moderation, rather than proactive and arguably rather less seamless interaction for users, need to rethink their strategy.” www.tnooz.com/2013/01/02/news/lonely-planet-forced-to-shut-thorn-tree-forum-over-inappropriate-content/Another issue is that TT did not employ word filter software which is commonplace in the other large all encompassing travel forums such as TA or VT. Implementing changes to TT along these lines will obviously take time, and those kind of revisions will hardly be anything like having been “altered slightly.” My only reason for coming on this forum was to post a link to the discussion on the Home in Bali forum explaining what was really behind TT’s closure and to dispel all the inaccuracies being widely reported by the press that it had something to do with the Jimmy Savile affair. It didn’t have anything to do with that issue, and that is simple fact. A good lesson perhaps on why one needs to remain vigilant regarding the internet.
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Post by bystander on Jan 4, 2013 8:38:12 GMT -5
When the BBC bought LP, I believe all the old archives disappeared and a new format was rolled out. It took a lot of tweaking to get it anywhere near user friendly. People grumbled, some left, others adapted. But it never shut down. It has been closed for too long now. If they haven't been able to clear up whatever they want to clear up in two weeks they have done themselves tremendous damage as a brand. They have also showed a lack of respect for the vast majority of contributors. If it is true that they were thinking of selling, they just lowered the price all by themselves.
LP guidebooks are not the best on the market, too seldom updated, too often wrong and I am not talking about lodging/restaurant info which printing schedules make almost impossible to keep up to date. Making portions of guidebooks available as pdf files to buy online was a good idea. They were backpacker and budget friendly. TT was the same. They weren't aimed at old ladies. BBC seems to have bought a business it didn't understand and didn't know how to run. In fact, they don't seem to have understood the internet at all.
Airhead, instead of all the statements about how informed you are, and if you are not the Bali writer, why not explain who you are and what your position in all this is? I don't think you were ever a TT user, your connection seems to be something to do with Bali rather than, say, the BBC. So who are you? Why come to a forum for TT users and defend the shutting down of TT? What's the point?
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